Upgrading Items

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evev
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Upgrading Items

Post by evev »

I was a bit bummed to know that currently there's very little in terms of equipment beyond the High Class set. Because of this I thought that it may be easier to implement an option for players to upgrade the statistics on their equipment.



-=The Basic Idea=-
  • A player has a weapon or armor for which they want to upgrade the attack or defense stat.
  • That player obtains an upgrade item (an "upgradifier") and brings it and the equippable item they wish to upgrade to an NPC.
  • They surrender both of the above items to the NPC and in return receive the same equippable item for which the attack or defense stat (as selected) was increased by X and its requirement level increased by Y.
Now that I've outlined the basic idea behind the upgrade process, lets consider the details.
  • A player can upgrade the attack and defense of any equippable item in the game, provided that the resulting required item level is less than 50.
  • The player can upgrade the attack and defense of all equippable helmets, body armors, accessories, right hand items and left hand items.
  • When a player brings an item with only the attack or defense stat, that single stat is automatically upgraded for the player. If a player brings an item that has BOTH an attack and defense stat then he chooses which to upgrade.
  • The player uses the services of an NPC so we can avoid the addition of hundreds of new combinations and still keep true to the spirit that items combined in the inventory give you a new combination recipe.
  • The NPC would allow multiple upgrades at the same time if the player elects to give the NPC multiple upgradifiers. The NPC would stop upgrading the item if the number of upgradifiers would push the item required level over 50.
  • The NPC can still work only at one stat at a time, so if the player has 10 upgradifiers and wants to increase an accessorie's attack and defense 5 times each he will have to speak to the NPC twice.
  • Later on it may be possible to upgrade other stats attached to an item (Max HP/MP%, Critical%, Run%), but ONLY if those stats already exist on that item.
-=The Numbers=-
I'm still working to finish an Excel spreadsheet of all the equippable items in the game, so these are more of a guess.

For this idea I would start with the assumption that the required level increase per upgrade would increase by either 1 or 2. This seems to be the approximate level difference between regular weapons and their lefty versions.

I see two ways of increasing the attack/defense number: fixed point increase or percentage increase. The point increase may be the simplest approach. If the stat is increased by a percentage, then it can be increased directly (attack * (1 + percent/100)) or via compound interest Image where n=number of periods, i=true interest rate ( %/100 ), PV=Present Value, FV=Future Value.

Some numbers with which I've had some success was 5 as a fixed increase and 0.11 as a percent increase in the compound interest formula.



-=Ways to Balance=-
Thankfully there are several "levels" that can be controlled to make upgrading items easier or harder. These would in large part depend on whether you decide that upgrading items should be "easy" (with upgradifiers dropping roughly as often as leftifiers are at high levels) or "hard" where the items drop rarely. Of course the bonus granted by each upgrade would vary according to how hard or easy the upgrade is to perform.
  • As mentioned above, the first way to balance is determining the drop rate of the "upgradifier" item. Since the item would be consumed each time a player upgrades, I'm leaning towards making them either easier to find or some kind of middle ground.
  • Once a player finds an "upgradifier", he may be required to convert it to upgrading attack, defense (or another stat in the future) via a combination recipe. For example: combine with Titanium Plating to add defense, or a Dirty Needle to add attack.
  • The NPC who does the upgrades can exist in a fixed location, or can be found ONLY via a random encounter in a particular hunting area.
  • To make finding the NPC even more challenging, the NPC could shift to different areas from day-to-day with the Wise Sage potentially giving a clue as to where the upgrade NPC is located.
-=Database Issue=-
One thing I'm completely clueless about is how to store the huge variety of resulting items in the database. If you take something like the Monocle item that has both attack and defense stats the it can be upgraded to make dozens of unique items!

Also, I'm unsure how upgraded items should be displayed in the market. An upgrade notation such as ( +X) can be used where X is the number of times upgraded or just a * added to the item name to show that it has been upgraded. Either way, for better or worse, the player will be looking at the item description to see the specific stats.




In closing, I feel that this idea can be a fun and challenging way for players of all levels to extend the shelf-life of their equipment and provide an interesting new game mechanic. Please let me know what you think!
Will
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Re: Upgrading Items

Post by Will »

evev wrote:-=Database Issue=-
One thing I'm completely clueless about is how to store the huge variety of resulting items in the database. If you take something like the Monocle item that has both attack and defense stats the it can be upgraded to make dozens of unique items!
I'm still digesting the rest of your post, so I'm not really sure how I feel about upgrading items.

As far as the database issue goes, I think you'd fare much better if you avoid treating each upgrade permutation as a distinct item and simply have the regular item as it exists in the database today and somehow attach to it a upgrade modifier stored in a different table. This would have to be done in the table that stores the items in each player's inventory.

I'm not familiar with the underlying structure of the Game! database, but this seems the easiest approach. Trying to save each different version of an upgraded weapon as a different item in the database would get out of control very fast. Imagine what the Market would look like!

My vote is that if upgraded items are allowed that the upgrades are lost when the item is sold or traded. This would skew the balance of the game significantly to high level characters who start new characters that can be furnished with even more advanced weaponry.

Oh, another random thought. What if this isn't so much of an upgrade as it is "skill with weapon x" so that it is the character learning how to better wield the item in question rather than the item gaining some additional power? That would eliminate the need to deal with selling/trading upgraded items. Perhaps each item could have a maximum skill bonus that could be applied to it, with more powerful weapons allowing more bonus.

Or, make it work the other way. Eliminate the "minimum level" requirement and penalize less skilled (lower level) characters for using a more difficult weapon. They can use it, it just doesn't work very well. Almost like your stats being reduced when your Stamina drops below 0%.

Enough random ramblings. Have a great weekend!
--Will aka Smelly Steve
Will
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Post by Will »

Ok, I just couldn't let this rest. It wouldn't get out of my head. It is preventing me from starting my weekend.

If I had to choose between development time being spent on item upgrades or something else, I'd choose something else. I'd probably vote for more and better quests. My favorite type of quest is the type found in the Abandoned House or the Dark Cave. The formula is:
1) Go to a designated area
2) Kill the boss
3) To get to the boss, you'll need specific items dropped at a higher frequency inside the designated area and possibly also dropped at a lower frequency in other areas
4) You may have to do some thinking and combine items to make the required item to gain access to the boss

I'd also like to see "item trading" type quests. Find item x. Trade item x to the old woman who lost it for item y. Trade item y to the little kid who wants it for Christmas in exchange for item z. Repeat until you get to the end and you end up with something you really wanted.
--Will aka Smelly Steve
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evev
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Post by evev »

Thanks for taking the time to respond Will!

Regarding your twinking concern: each time an item is upgraded, its base level requirment (to equip it) is increased as well. Because of this someone will be unable to give upgraded weapons/armor with 150+ stats on them to their level 0 character. They would be able to give slightly upgraded weapons to help improve damage or defense during the gaps between equipment, but I see that as little different from the twinking we have now.

The idea regarding weapon proficiencies for each damage type is interesting. Just a heads up: some time ago I mentioned an idea for fighter special attacks (Grunty Swing, etc) having proficiency levels, but the general consensus was that that would make fighters too much like mages and the mages' spell proficiencies.

Eliminating minimum level requirements is another unique approach. The problem would be communicating equipment progression to the player. Maybe there could be an NPC who would look at the items you have equipped and say: "Because of your level you are ##% efficient in using your __ITEM NAME__".

Will wrote:If I had to choose between development time being spent on item upgrades or something else, I'd choose something else.
Image

For the record, it feels like everyone wants new quests, but so far I've seen zero individuals step forward with actual quests that can be implemented (mechanics, requirements, and text). Please see this post for more.
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Mad Merlin
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Post by Mad Merlin »

So, the question on my mind is, is an upgraded item better than other items at that level? In other words, if I take a dagger and upgrade it to level 40, will it be better or worse than other level 40 weapons? If it's better, that's probably problematic, it means that you could twink a new character with just a poverty set and a big stack of upgradifiers. However, if it's worse, then that means you'd probably only ever apply them to the best item of each type, or if there's a large gap between your current item and the next best one.

You're right though, I'd want to avoid creating unique new items for each upgrade, it'd very quickly get out of hand. The player proficiencies with certain weapons or weapon types (or defense, etc) seems like a much better approach to me.

A slightly different formulation would involve upgrading each item slot, so you could upgrade your arm and then weapons would start doing more damage when wielded with that arm. One problem with that approach is limiting how many times you can upgrade each slot, although you could create several upgradifiers that work in sequence (ie, Upgradifier #1, Upgradifier #2, Upgradifier #3, ...), each with their own separate level requirement. There probably wouldn't be more than 10 or so, with each progressively less common (and with higher level requirements), and you'd have to use all of #1-7 before you could use #8 on each slot.

A similar option involves adding more item slots, that way you can equip more things simultaneously.

Having to hunt for NPCs is an interesting twist, I'll have to keep that in mind, possibly for other things as well.
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evev
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Post by evev »

Mad Merlin wrote:So, the question on my mind is, is an upgraded item better than other items at that level?
This will depend on both how quickly does the level requirement rise with each upgrade and on how many attack/defense points are added per upgrade.

Lets assume that I take a Dagger (level 1, 4 attack) and upgrade it (with +1 level requirement per upgrade) until it requires level 38 to use, same as an Umbrella (153 attack). If I add +5 attack per level then after 37 upgrades my Dagger will have 189 attack. If I increase the existing attack value by 1.1% per upgrade then the Dagger will have 152 attack. Regardless of which method is chosen or how much attack/defense increases per upgrade you have to keep in mind that the player had to find 37 upgradifiers, potentially combined them with additional items and maybe spent stamina looking for an NPC.

Addendum: After running some more calculations I've realized that a sliding scale will need to be implemented if any kind of percents are used.
Mad Merlin wrote:If it's better, that's probably problematic, it means that you could twink a new character with just a poverty set and a big stack of upgradifiers.
I have a hard time seeing any issues. For one, currently even I can start a level 0 and give him every set from Poverty to High Class. I see little difference between this and giving a new character upgraded items since these items will have higher level requirements than their vanilla versions. If the NPC who does upgrades can only be found in higher-level areas then low-level characters will be physically unable to upgrade their items themselves.



My understanding of databases and how they can interact is very rudimentary. If it's possible, maybe there can be some kind of magical code that will check a new value for each item that is the number of times upgraded. It will then automatically re-calculate the new item stats.
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Post by Will »

I was writing this yesteday and never finished. I'll see if I can finish it up later, but didn't want to lose it.

I wasn't familiar with the term "twinking" until now. Thanks!

I guess it would increase twinking, but incrementally. As you said, it would fill in the gaps between weapon upgrades. Essentially allowing "maximum twinking" because a lower level character could always be equipped with a maximally effective weapon/defensive item at each level, rather than having to wait to reach the level of the next most effective item. At each level increase, the higher level character could upgrade the weapon by one more level, allowing the lower level character to have incremental improvements each time he leveled up.

I'm not entirely sure how much of an impact this would actually have on Game! but using skill upgrades instead would avoid this whole issue.

Originally, I was hoping for upgrades to the Fighter Skills, but I see the value in keeping it distinct from the Mage. The "skills" I see being upgraded are not "Grunty Swing", etc. This would be a new skill type entirely. You wouldn't use it directly, it would work in conjunction with weapons of a specific type.

More later.
--Will aka Smelly Steve
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evev
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Post by evev »

I understand what you mean regarding gear proficiencies, Will. :P

One thing worth mentioning is that I made this thread to try and address the dearth of new equipment after level 40. Meaning, to give people something to help break up the grind or a mechanic with which to spend their time when they hit the high levels.

Looking forward to the rest of your post though!
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